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Mixed spectrums indoor

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Sensi Advanced Grower
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  Quote Sticky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mixed spectrums indoor
    Posted: 07 April 2006 at 06:17
Hi growers

It has long been known that mixing a large amount of spectrums indoors gives the best results

Example, Using metal halide bulbs with high presure sodiums
Gives me the best results, Metals come in all kinds of spectrums these days so mix them up

And if you want to throw a little incandesant light in as well it will help spread your lumins around

Phillips no this so they made the son-t series, but you can get better results mixing   

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  Quote SydBarrett420 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2006 at 07:50

Hello Sticky,

I recently moved indoors so i could continue to grow in the off season. I use a 150watt HPS and 3 t12 flourecents using plant/aquarium bulbs. In an Older Post I belive the admin. Ganja said the 150watt HPS probably wasnt worth using... also he said the plant lights produce less lumens than the "cool white" bulbs. I dont know if anyone else has ever expirmented with this but my system produces over 30,000 lumens and seems plenty for my 2 plants... the 150 watt hps i can get about 5 inches above the top of the plants without burning them, i have the flouro tubes at a slight angle going vertical with the plants. The plants can touch the flouro bulbs for long periods of time with no visable damage. I am currently at week 6 of the flowering cycle and my nugs are full and thick, better than my last outdoor batch at that. this goes against what many people told me. I was told my plants would be weak and unhealthy and have very leafy buds but it appears i have already proved them wrong.

LEGALIZE IT.
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  Quote Ganja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2006 at 14:54

HPS bulbs smaller than 250w (or 400w, for that matter) are less attractive (to me, anyway) because of their lumen output vs power consumption.

It's not to say that the light emitted by a smaller HPS will be unsuitable for flowering. It's still in the correct spectrum and is still high-intensity light.

If a grower is attending the other needs of their plants, I wouldn't expect plants grown to be leafy or weak when grown under a smaller HPS and additional fluoro lights

Assuming that your combined lights use just under 300w to produce 30K lm, you're not quite producing lumens at the efficiency of a single 400w HPS, but it's not too far off either.

Out of interest, what is the breakdown of power vs light for your system?

How much light does the 150w HPS produce? (I'm guessing about 16K lm)

And what wattage are the t12 fluoros? If you're getting around 14K lm out of three of them, I guess they must be bigger than 120cm/36w straight tubes.

Are they the new looped Compact Fluroescent bulbs? 5K lm each, 70w?

UPDATE - okay, t12 are normal fluoro tubes. What wattage/size/output are yours?

Anyhow, there are always other solutions for every part of indoor growing. We tend to give the simplest, most widely applicable answers to growing questions.

But if you're willing to spend some time experimenting, researching and planning, there are dozens of alternatives that may make more sense for your particular growing situation.

BTW - did I say that growing fluoros (I'm thinking of pink/purple 'envirolight' tubes) produce fewer lumens that cool white tubes? I can't recall.

I know that household tubes tend to give about 2500-2800lm for 36w, but I'm not sure what an envirolight of the same size produces.

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  Quote Grasso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2006 at 18:24
Hello,

some rules: Old-school fluorescent lamps emit more light than compact fluoros because the phosphoric layer is thinner. Long tubes emit more light than short ones because the tube ends (cathodes) produce waste heat. Good starters suck less current (real and imaginary) in a less irregular fashion than bad ones. Good electronic starters (inverters) produce less heat than good old-school electric starters. Fluoros with a smooth light spectrum emit a bit less light than fluoros with a peaky spectrum. The old "daylight" type has a much nicer spectrum than any of the modern types.

Lumen is not a measure for photosynthetic efficiency in electrically powered plantings. Comparing apples to oranges...

The most natural spectrum can be archieved with highest efficiency by using a combination of 6500°K metal (sodium, mercury, brom and iodid) vapour lamps and incandescent (tungsten, wolfram) lamps.

Uli

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  Quote Ganja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2006 at 19:27

Interesting info about fluoro tubes vs CF. We're referring to the giant CFs designed for growing (which aren't actually that compact, admittedly), rather than the small ones that screw into regular household fittings.

Still, the even these large ones have much shorter tubes than old-style, with thicker glass and presumably the thicker phosphoric layer you mention.

OTOH, the information I've read rates incandescent lamps as completely unsuitable for growing.

You mention them as helping to promote a natural spectrum, rather than being main grow-lights, but are you referring to a special kind of incandescent?

I'd never heard the term wolfram before, and I gather it's another name for tungsten. I thought at first it might be a special kind of growing bulb 

INCANDESCENT LAMP: A light source which generates light utilizing a thin filament wire (usually of tungsten) heated to white heat by an electric current passing through it. Incandescent lamps are the most familiar type of light source, with countless application in homes, stores and other commercial settings. Light is produced by passing electric current through a thin wire filament, usually tungsten.

Incan­descent lamps are totally ineffective as grow lights; they have very limited spectrum, are very inefficient in their conversion of electrical power to lumens of light output (lumen-to-watt ratio). They also put off far too much heat per watt to use in horticulture, even if the above-mentioned problems did not exist.http://www.greenhouses-etc.net/lighting/info_garden_light_glossary.htm

I'm not sure about your dismissal of lumens as a useful measure for talking about indoor illumination. I must confess I have no training in light-related engineering or physics, so I wouldn't seek to argue the point.

But lumens - as produced by electric lamps that are intended for growing - are certainly the most used and (apparently) useful measure for judging the illumination of indoor plants.

Other growers judge by watts per square metre.This seems like a rather abstract way to me, but if you're considering this measure as applied to wattages of lights than are intended for growing, I guess it's instructive enough to the people who calculate this way.

I get your point that lumens are only relevant if they're useful to the plant, but when growers refer to lumens they're usually talking about those produced by grow-lamps.

I'm interested in learning the difference about the difference in photosynthetic efficiency between the lumens produced by HID lamps and fluorescents, if you'd care to post.

The recommendation of incandescents as as efficient source of indoor light, even for additional red-spectrum light,  seems odd though...



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  Quote cordless_spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2006 at 19:55
i was reading up about photosynthesis and as important as the light measurement lumens, i read it takes 20 photons of light plus the h2o and co2 molecules to create 1 molicule of sugar in the plants cycle.
as important as lumens are the most important factor in light is the par of the light. par= photosynthetically active radiation.
a hps or hid might produce upto 125k lumens of light but the light is no where near 100% par, probably 15-30% par when new and decreasing as the lamp hours build up.
fluorescent lights on the other hand are 100% par when bought in 2700k-4000k-6400k.
so if you have a hps 100w giving 100k lumens and only say 20% of that light is in the correct par spectrum you only have 20k lumens of useable light.
now if you bought 4 125w self ballasting cfl lamps which each give 10k lumens you will have 40k lumens of 100% par light costing 0.5kwh to run against a 1kwh hps/hid lamp producing half of the useable light but consuming twice the power.
imho i would choose the fluros over hps/hid ( i have both and dont use them at all)
the cost of running them is next to nothing low heat output and the most important thing for the plant its 100% par.

just my opinion by the way
peace
cs
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  Quote cordless_spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2006 at 22:18
Originally posted by cordless_spoons


so if you have a hps 100w giving 100k lumens and only say 20% of that light is in the correct par spectrum you only have 20k lumens of useable light.



i meant a 1000w hps or hid
my error
peace
cs
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  Quote Grasso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2006 at 15:34
Hello,

the PAR curve has maxima at 430 (blue) and 670 (red) nanometer wavelength. Tune your radio receiver to some trillion Hertz and you will hear the whistling! Between the maxima is a minimum -- green light -- where photosynthetic action is halved.

Lumen measures light as we see it. The human eye has a maximum at 550 nm (green) and is ten times less sensitive at 430 and 670 nm.

The PAR curve is not perfect either but in some sense utter wrong, promoting the great misconception that green light was inferior or even useless. The contrary is true. When vegetation is dense then much green light of the sunlight is reflected the first leave only to become gradually absorbed by other leaves. Photosynthetic efficiency is the highest with green light as well as a narrow band of far-red light. Much energy is stored in sugar, few energy is wasted as heat. Highly developed plants uptake most of their energy from green light. A part of the blue light contained within the sunlight is frequency-shifted by the leaves to far-red light by fluorescence.

Spectrum plots as for example for lumen and PAR have energy on the Y axis. But the photons of blue light have a higher energy than the photons of red light. Cordless Spoons said that photosynthesis is based on photons. Therefore blue light is less efficient than red light.

I agree neither with Cordless Spoon's "fluoros are superiour" thesis nor with the "incandescent lights are useless" thesis. I would like to know why the spectrum of the sun drops so fast beyond 400 nm while incandescent lamps slowly fade out into the visible light. Right now I am in a hurry so I stop here for now and wish you a nice day,

Uli
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  Quote cordless_spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2006 at 19:07
hi grasso
all i was saying was im my opinion (and i personally get the best results using cfl's) was that pound for pound fluros are far better for the reasons i posted earlier power par etc.
there is also not enough data that i can find on the effects of the different types of rays that are not present in an indoor enviroment eg gamma,infra red,etc that the sun produces naturally that may not be as present in a closed grow room so i cant really comment on the full light spectrum as i dont fully understand it as much as yourself.
as you know the spectrum of light or colour changes throughout the day from a very light blue bright light in the morning to a very red warm light at sunset with a colour temp of about 4k at midday.
i would speculate that the plants have the ability to photosynthesise at many more colour temps than ppl think, as for green light i agree that blue freq shifted light could be used by the plant quite easily but is blue freq shifted light photonically charged @ the same rate as green light emitted from say a hps or hid ? i dont know myself.
i would be very surprised if incandescent lights would have the ability to contribute enough par photons to significantly help a plant and would be highly inefficient from a power vs yield point of view.
hps/hid have for many years worked perfectly for millions of ppl so they are doing something right thats for sure, i should have my new 12x12ft flowering room finished shortly and i intend to split the room and run half with just floros and the other with hps and hid to find out definitively the best method. i will post results and updates/pics on here in a new thread.
peace
cs
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